EMDR Phase 4 Explained: What Desensitization Actually Looks Like (And the Therapist's Real Job)

Jun 2

This blog is adapted from one of our recent podcast episodes. You can take a listen at the button above.

Phase 4 is the one everyone's heard of. It's the eye movements, the bilateral stimulation, the part that shows up in TikTok videos and gets people curious about EMDR in the first place. But what's actually happening during desensitization and what does a skilled therapist do while it unfolds?

In this post, we break down Phase 4 in detail: what it looks like in session, what dual awareness means and why it's the whole goal, how cognitive interweaves work, and why the therapist's most important job is often to get out of the way.

Key Takeaways

In this blog post, you'll learn:

What EMDR Phase 4 Desensitization actually involves from start to finish
What dual awareness is and why it's the engine of EMDR healing
Why you don't necessarily need specific memories to benefit from EMDR
What the flash forward technique is and when it's used
What cognitive interweaves are and how they help clients get unstuck
The most common mistakes new clinicians make in Phase 4
Why the therapist's job is mostly to stay out of the way

Phase 4 Is What Most People Think of as EMDR

When people picture EMDR (the eye movements, the hand tapping, the bilateral stimulation), they're picturing Phase 4. Desensitization is the heart of what makes EMDR work, and it's the phase that tends to generate the most curiosity from potential clients and the most questions from newer clinicians.

But Phase 4 doesn't happen in isolation. Everything in Phases 1, 2, and 3 (the history taking, the resources, the target identification) exists to set this phase up. Without that foundation, desensitization has nowhere to go.

Think of it this way: if EMDR were a pickleball match, Phases 1 through 3 are setting up the serve. Phase 4 is finally making contact with the ball.

A Quick Note: You Don't Need Specific Memories for EMDR

Before diving into the basic protocol, let’s address one of the most common misconceptions about EMDR: that it only works if you have clear, accessible memories.

That's not true.

While specific memories are helpful and are the starting point for the basic protocol, there are other ways to work in Phase 4 for clients who don't have them. One of the most useful is the flash forward technique.

Rather than working from a past memory, the flash forward technique asks the client to construct an image of their worst case scenario, the thing they fear most, and desensitizes that instead. It's particularly useful for clients who present with intense anticipatory anxiety or frequent nightmares without identifiable memories attached.

Here's something Cassandra has observed over years of practice: clients who start with the flash forward technique because they can't access specific memories will sometimes, as processing progresses and distress decreases, begin to remember events that look remarkably similar to the feared scenario they constructed. The memory was there - it just wasn't consciously accessible yet. As the nervous system calms, the timeline becomes clearer.

For clients wondering whether EMDR is right for them if they don't have specific memories: yes, go. A seasoned EMDR provider has tools to work with you regardless.

Book a free consultation with Cassandra →

What Phase 4 Actually Looks Like: The Basic Protocol

I keep a document I call "EMDR Easy" - a scripted walkthrough I give to new clinicians. Phase 4, in its basic form, sounds like this:

"I'd like you to bring up that image, those negative words. Notice where you're feeling it in your body. And now follow my hands, and just notice whatever comes up for you. There are no supposed to's. Let whatever happens, happen."

That's it. That's the beginning of Phase 4.

What follows is bilateral stimulation - in my practice, that's hand movements the client follows with their eyes. As the client tracks and processes, different things come up: body sensations, emotional responses, shifts in how the memory feels or appears. I deliberately avoid describing exactly what those shifts look like, because clients who've seen EMDR content online sometimes unconsciously recreate what they've seen rather than letting their own process unfold. The goal is genuine processing, not performance.

What does indicate progress: the client starts to feel more removed from the memory. Things that once felt immediate and consuming begin to feel more like something that happened, rather than something that is still happening.

Dual Awareness: The Goal of Phase 4

Everything in Phase 4 is working toward one thing: dual awareness.

Dual awareness is the ability to hold two things at once - the memory from the past and the present moment. When someone is triggered by a traumatic memory, they lose that split. They're no longer here, in the present, with the people around them. They're back in it, to a varying degree, reliving rather than remembering.

EMDR works by rebuilding that split. As bilateral stimulation continues and the memory network is activated, the client begins to experience the memory from a greater distance. They can think about it without being consumed by it. They can be present here while also acknowledging that this happened.

When dual awareness increases, a domino effect follows:

Emotional intensity around the memory decreases
Body sensations connected to it decrease
The negative cognition loses its grip
The client begins to move forward

This is the mechanism. Everything else in Phase 4 is in service of this.

When Clients Get Stuck: Returning to the Worst Part

Not every session moves in a clean line. Clients sometimes get stuck… the processing stalls, the distress level plateaus, the memory stops shifting. When that happens, the protocol is straightforward: return to the worst part of the memory and begin bilateral stimulation again.

I no longer always ask for a specific number on the distress scale at this point. With experience, I read what the body is communicating (the posture, the breath, the voice) and calibrate from observation. For newer clinicians, I recommend asking for and recording an actual reported number. The data matters when you don't yet have hundreds of sessions to draw from.

One important language note: the original basic protocol asks clients to rate distress on a scale where zero equals no distress. I have modified this. For clients who have experienced profound loss or severe trauma, distress around the memory is appropriate - it's not the target. What I measure instead is control: how much is this memory controlling you right now? That framing keeps the focus on dual awareness rather than on eliminating an emotion that has every right to exist.

The Therapist's Job: Mostly, Get Out of the Way

This is one of the most counterintuitive things about Phase 4 for new clinicians. The therapist's primary job during desensitization is not to guide, interpret, or direct. It's to observe, hold space, and intervene as little as possible.

I use an analogy: it's like watching a one-year-old play in the backyard. The child's brain and body know what they need to do. A good parent doesn't hover and redirect every move - they stay close, watch carefully, and only step in when something genuinely requires intervention. An acorn in the mouth? A gentle redirect. A copperhead three feet away? Sprint.

EMDR is the same. The client's brain knows how to heal when given the right conditions. The therapist's job is to provide those conditions and trust the process.

Common mistakes I see in newer clinicians:

Keeping bilateral stimulation sets too short
Talking too much during processing
Letting clients stay in a cognitive, analytical space instead of moving into the felt experience
Overusing interweaves before the process has had a chance to move on its own

The instinct to help more is understandable. It's also often the thing that gets in the way.

Considering EMDR at Seen Therapy? Book a free consultation →

Cognitive Interweaves: When the Therapist Does Step In

There are times when the therapist needs to intervene more actively like when a client is genuinely stuck and the process isn't moving on its own. This is where cognitive interweaves come in.

A cognitive interweave is a targeted input (an image, a question, a piece of feedback) that the therapist introduces to help a client move past a barrier. The goal isn't to tell the client what to think or feel. It's to introduce something that helps the stuck place loosen.

The most effective interweaves don't come from the therapist's own words. They come from the resource figures the client has already built in Phase 2. This is exactly why I emphasize knowing those figures deeply - not just their name, but their voice, their way of responding, the specific things they would say.

If a client is stuck on a belief that they weren't enough, and grandma is their nurturing figure, the interweave might sound like: "Don't you think grandma would come over, take your hand, and tell you that you were enough? And that this was just a bump and you were going to keep going?" That's not a generic reassurance. That's a specific, grounded response from someone the client's nervous system already trusts.

The therapist's own words are always available as a fallback, but they're a last resort, not a first move.

When the process goes significantly off track, the therapist's options are:

Return to the original worst part (the Polaroid)
Contain what's come up and redirect: "I've got that. I'm writing it down. Come back to the Polaroid."
Provide a cognitive interweave using the client's resource figures
Pause and ground: sensory grounding, essential oils, naming things in the room

New Information That Arises in Phase 4

One thing worth preparing clients for: Phase 4 sometimes surfaces new information. A memory that seemed contained can open into a larger memory network. Something unrelated, or seemingly unrelated, can come up mid-session.

This isn't a derailment. It's the process doing exactly what it's supposed to do. The brain is making connections, and some of those connections weren't visible from the outside yet.

Clinicians can acknowledge what's arising without chasing it: "I hear that. That sounds hard. It seems connected to what we're working on, but it's over here for now. Let me hold that for you." Writing it down signals that it won't be lost. It becomes material for a future session, not an interruption to the current one.

The degree to which a clinician allows free association versus keeps the client close to the original target is something that can be discussed ahead of time, but it's also a live, in-session judgment call. If the client is moving toward overwhelm, the therapist contains. If the process is productive and the client is within their window of tolerance, space is given.

What This Means If You're Considering EMDR

Phase 4 is what makes EMDR different from most other therapies. It's not primarily a talking-based process. The brain does a significant amount of the work, and the therapist's role, especially during active processing, is to hold the container, not fill it.

If you've been curious about EMDR but unsure what it actually involves, this phase is worth understanding before you begin. A good EMDR therapist will walk you through exactly what to expect, answer your questions, and make sure you're resourced enough to tolerate what comes up.

Questions worth asking:

How do you handle it when a client gets stuck in Phase 4?
What does your role look like during active processing?
How will I know if something comes up that we need to address separately?

Ready to start EMDR therapy in Springfield, MO? Book a free consultation with Cassandra →

Frequently Asked Questions About EMDR Phase 4

What is EMDR Phase 4 Desensitization?

Phase 4 is where bilateral stimulation is introduced to begin processing a trauma memory. The client focuses on the target identified in Phase 3 (the image, the negative cognition, and the body sensations) while following the therapist's hand movements or another form of BLS. The goal is to reduce the memory's emotional charge by building dual awareness.

What is dual awareness in EMDR?

Dual awareness is the ability to hold a traumatic memory in mind while remaining present in the current moment. It's the opposite of being triggered - instead of being pulled back into the memory, the client can acknowledge it from a safer distance. As dual awareness increases, the memory loses its grip: the emotions, body sensations, and negative beliefs connected to it begin to decrease.

Do you need specific memories for EMDR to work?

No. While specific memories are the starting point for the basic EMDR protocol, techniques like the flash forward method allow clinicians to work with clients who don't have clear, accessible memories. This approach uses the client's imagined worst-case scenario as the target instead of a past event. Clients in this situation are best served by an experienced EMDR provider.

What is a cognitive interweave in EMDR?

A cognitive interweave is a targeted input a therapist introduces when a client is stuck during Phase 4 processing. The most effective interweaves draw on the client's resource figures like the nurturing, protective, or wise figures established in Phase 2, rather than the therapist's own words. The goal is to provide just enough input to help the stuck place move, without taking over the client's process.

What happens if new memories come up during EMDR Phase 4?

It's common. Processing one memory can surface connections to others. A skilled EMDR therapist will acknowledge what's come up, note it for future work, and help the client return to the current target without losing what emerged. This is part of why the process is described as circular - new material often becomes the focus of future sessions.

What are the most common EMDR mistakes in Phase 4?

For newer clinicians: keeping BLS sets too short, talking too much during processing, allowing clients to stay in a cognitive rather than experiential space, and overusing cognitive interweaves before the process has had a chance to move. The core mistake is intervening too much. The brain does most of the work when given the space to do it.

Related Resources

Hello. Hello. Hello, friends, welcome to the podcast where we simplify everything about mental health. Just kidding. But here's what we are gonna do. We're gonna sit down together a licensed mental health professional, that's me and a regular old Joe as my husband Garth would describe himself. We're gonna talk about the nitty gritty of EMDR, some nervous system mapping, how couples can help each other heal. What's healthy parenting actually look like? Maybe a little bit of good old banter mixed in. All with the goal of making mental health a little bit simpler for you. Quick note, because my lawyer says that I have to, I'm a therapist, but not your therapist. Unless I am. Even if I am. This is still just a podcast. Okay, now have a good listen. Hello, friends. We are continuing our EMDR phase series. There are eight phases. We are on phase four, and I am joined by Garth. Again. Yay. Surprise, shocker. Keep dragging him back. Who knew? Guys, these episodes have been pretty meaty anyway, but phase four is a big one. Phase four is what people typically think of when they think of EMDR. Now, phase four is not all there is to EMDR, but desensitization is a big part of EMDR. So, we are really going to get into it, why phase four is important, while also not discrediting that all of the other phases that surround it and support it are very important as well. We're gonna, I think in this episode, unless I get off track, at least where my notes are right now, we're gonna st- stick to the basic protocol. Mm-hmm. The vast majority of the time is we're talking about this phase, then we'll trail off, I think, in just one, one area. At least that's my goal. So before we get rolling, Garth, bant us. If you were a fish, what fish would you be? If I were a fish, what fish would I be? So I could be completely wrong. It seems as though clownfish have a decent quality of life with- Mm-hmm ... their whole symbiotic relationship with sea anemones. Mm-hmm, yeah. However, I caught a pufferfish or a blowfish once- Mm-hmm ... when I was, like, five. Yeah? Just, just like- How did you do that? Yeah. They're, like, deadly. By pure luck. A- and I would have to ask an adult that was with me. Sometimes my memory is I caught it, sometimes my memory is someone else caught it- Mm-hmm ... and that was standing next to me. Mm-hmm. I don't know if they are deadly. We should look that up. Do you think they are? Yeah, they're super deadly. Yeah, because I, I know that because of food. It's a delicacy that you can only get in certain places, and- I thought that was lionfish. No, pufferfish. I mean, lionfish are deadly too, I think. But pufferfish, if you, like, miss one little tiny bit you're dead. That's it. Wow. Anyway, I'm 100% certain that we caught one. And yeah, apparently they contain a deadly neurotoxin more poisonous than cyanide. W- one fish holds enough toxin to kill 30 adults. Mm-hmm. Wow. Paralysis, respiratory failure. Yeah. Yeah. You sure you caught one of those when you were five? I'm not confident I did- Yeah ... but I am confident I saw one. Huh. What, what was going on? Give us some context here. We were just- You just caught it? Like- We were out, like, up to our knees, and now that I'm talking it through, I do think it was an adult next to me- Mm-hmm ... but not someone in my family. Yeah. It was, like, another... Or not someone that I knew. Yeah. It was just a random adult waving a net around, and they came up with a pufferfish and- Ugh. Yeah. Yeah. And we, apparently none of us knew that it was poisonous or whatever- Yeah ... you, I mean, is that- Maybe there's a d- No ... maybe there's a difference between a pufferfish and a blowfish. Maybe they're different types, right? Maybe. Yeah, we should look into this. Yeah. We'll look into it more, but you're thinking maybe one of those, either a clownfish or one of those, huh? Yeah, now I've talked way too long. Okay. I said all of this to say I have a special connection with pufferfish. Yeah. Yeah we will circle back in the next episode and let you know- ... whether or not I was being exposed to... We just, they, they kinda just, like... And maybe the adult knew it was semi-poisonous or something- Uh-huh. Yeah ... or, and I don't know if I'm using poison- poisonous versus venomous accurately- Mm ... but they did lob it back with the net. They didn't touch it. Yeah. And they specifically instructed us not to touch it, but we were, like, stu- I don't know. Anyway, I have a special connection to them. Yeah, a near-death experience- ... sounds like to me. Apparently. Yeah. I need to go down a r- a Google rabbit hole after this. Okay. Okay. What's your favorite fish? It's not my favorite fish. It's what fish would I be if I was a fish, if I had to be a fish. Well, apparently a pufferfish. I thought I wanted to be a pufferfish, and now that I know more, I definitely- Mm-hmm ... they, they've got a lot going for them. You've made a tough argument, yeah. You may eat me, but I'm gonna kill you - Yeah. That's right. Yeah ... in the process. Yeah, I don't know. Of course, yeah, something safe would be nice, but I don't know. I guess if I had to be a fish I might be one of those Goliath groupers. Oh, yeah. Like, these big old- Big guys. Yeah. And I mean- Just big, big, big, old guys ... I'm just big. I'm just big. I sit here. I just appear. I'm big. It's funny when we talk about animals in this Banting section of the podcast, I often focus on quality of life. You do, yeah. Almost exclusively being your deciding factor in all the choices. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's so funny. Wow. Okay. Nobody psychoanalyze that. All right. We are six minutes in. Hey. All right let's get rolling. Phase four of EMDR. Like I said, this is what folks think of when they think of EMDR. We are working to, in the basic EMDR protocol, process a past memory. I think I'll go ahead and I will really quickly take us off trail, off of the basic protocol really quick. What? Just so that we can then stay on the basic- Mm ... protocol. Okay. Okay. Okay? So the way that I'm gonna take us off, we've talked about this on the podcast and in this series before, people have a misconception that you absolutely need to know specific memories- Mm-hmm ... in order to get into phase four and desensitize current symptoms. And though that is very helpful, it is not true that that has to happen. Okay. I'm gonna give one example of a technique that we could use where we would not need any past memories, and that would be the flash forward technique. So in the flash forward technique, rather than utilizing specific memories that are distressing, we would be asking someone to construct an image of your worst case scenario, and then we'd be desensitizing that. Mm. Okay. Yeah. I will also do, I'll essentially use this if someone comes in and they're having frequent nightmares but they don't have any identified memories, we'll desensitize the nightmares. Mm-hmm. We're not gonna go into all of the different ways that you can help someone with EMDR if they don't have a specific memory, but I just wanted to identify that outside of the basic protocol for phase four, there are ways to address things without a specific memory from the past, and a flash forward technique is one way in which a clinician could do that. Okay. So if you're a client listening who's like, "Do I even go to EMDR? I don't even have- Mm ... specific memories." Yes, go to EMDR. We can still help you. Mm-hmm. That makes sense, though. You don't have specific memories, so you imagine something that would fuel these symptoms that you're having right now to use as a tool to a- attack those symptoms right now. That's neat. Yes. And again, that's not the only thing you can do, but it's one thing that you can do. Mm-hmm. And without getting too in the weeds on it, here's an interesting thing. The brain is so cool, right? I have had, I would say probably somewhere between a half a dozen and a dozen people, I can't put a specific number on it right now- Mm-hmm. Yeah ... on the spot, but- Who have, I have used the slash forward technique with, they haven't been able to identify specific memories, and it is not uncommon in the process of EMDR to initially not be able to identify memories. Mm-hmm. Or be able to identify very small parts, and then those memories become ironically as they become more clear, less distressing. Mm-hmm. The timeline of events becomes more clear- Mm-hmm ... as things become less distressing. I have had people construct very similar future events that they're fearful of, this worst case scenario, very similar to the memories that then they're able to put together later- Mm-hmm ... in treatment. Does that make sense? Interesting. So like it, it was lingering there- Yeah ... as the, the fear, the, the worst case scenario was what happened. They just didn't really remember that specific thing. It was there. It just wasn't very accessible- Clear ... consciously. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So I've had that happen a, a good handful of times now which is just, it, it's interesting. Yeah. Okay. So in order to go through phase four, I want to go to a document that I give to new clinicians, and I literally have it saved in my drive as EMDR Easy. So in EMDR Easy, it goes through all of the phases. But then in phase four, it's very scripted, so I just wanna really quickly walk you through that. Okay. So if I were sitting with a client and we were walking through phase four, I would say, "I'd like you to bring up the, that image, those negative words." Mm-hmm. "Notice where you're feeling it in your body." And I provide eye movements with my hands, so I would say, "And now follow my hands, and just notice whatever comes up for you. There are no supposed to's. Let whatever happens, happens, happen." And lots of different things are coming up for clients at that point. Mm-hmm. Now, remember, we've established the negative cognitions- Mm-hmm ... and- Mm-hmm ... all of that in, in phase three. Yeah. Right? So we have prepared ourselves for this already. And then in phase four, we're just working to desensitize. So as different things come up for clients, sometimes it's a body feeling. I've had people say before like, "My legs are really feeling like they just wanna take off and run." Mm-hmm. Yep, that's normal. Let's notice that. Yep. More often than not, what comes up for folks is they see big shifts in the memory. Mm-hmm. I'm sure that you could search for this on YouTube and it'd give you specific examples. I'm hesitant to throw out really specific examples, but ways that memories shift, because I do think that sometimes clients come in, and just like any type of therapy clients are humans. Mm-hmm. I'm just cli- right? Yeah, yeah. Like, I do this too. Humans are set up to, like, want to please. Yeah. And so they've seen something online of how EMDR has supposed to work how EMDR is supposed to work, and then they play that out. Mm-hmm. Right? So I don't necessarily wanna go into the specifics of what happens, but there are ways in which a memory shifts that really usually kind of catches clients off guard and indicates to me that they are more removed from that memory- Mm-hmm than they were before. Yeah. Now, remember, we've talked about the goal of EMDR is to create dual awareness. Mm-hmm. And then there's a domino effect after that. Okay. So if we can create dual awareness, a client is going to feel more removed from a memory because they're not going to feel like they're continuing to be present in it- Right as they were before. Well, I'm present. I can, I can think of that, and I can also be present here. Exactly. Yeah, that's the dual awareness. Dual awareness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so if I'm present here with you- Mm-hmm ... then, again, I have to be more removed from that memory than I was before. Mm-hmm. Whereas in the past, when that memory has been brought up- Mm-hmm whether I choose to bring it up or it's randomly brought up- Mm-hmm ... I am no longer in the present with the person or environment that I am present with. Right. I am, to a varying degree, sucked into that memory. Mm-hmm. So this shows up for clients, like I said, in a variety of ways, but essentially what's happening for them is they are becoming more and more disconnected from that memory as their dual awareness increases. So there are times when clients are going to become stuck, and that's really normal. Mm-hmm. We're going to go back to the worst part of this memory, bring it up, and we're going to do bilateral stimulation again. So again, if you're seeing me, that's following my hands- Mm-hmm ... as, as we do eye movements. And then you're gonna ask the client, "When you think of the original incident, on a scale of zero to 10- Where zero is the memory having no control, and 10 is the memory having complete control, how much control do you feel this situation has over you now? Mm-hmm. Now, I do not walk through that exact verbiage anymore. Yeah. And sometimes I don't even ask for an exact number anymore. I'm watching for how the body is changing- Mm-hmm ... for my client. And I'm listening to what they're reporting to me. Mm-hmm. When you're new, though, we've talked about this several times when you're new to EMDR, I do think there is really something to learning the rules, learning them well, leaning into the basic protocol- Mm-hmm um, and living there. Yeah. Now, this template that I have here for my new clinicians that are starting EMDR, as it walks through phase four, and what we just went through is, is phase four. It's, it's that simple. Okay. Yeah. And then we get into phase five, which we're, we're not doing un- until next week. So as we walk through phase four, I have even changed some of the language from the original protocol a little bit. So there are things that you can do even as a new clinician to kind of tweak things. I'll give you one example. When you think of the original incident on a scale of zero to 10, where zero is the memory having no control over you, that, those are my words. Mm-hmm. I believe the original protocol says, "Where zero is the memory having no distress." Mm-hmm. The problem we run into is if I'm working with a parent who has lost their child- Mm-hmm ... their child has died. Yeah. They're distressed. Yeah ... in this, the memory of losing their child is distressing. Yeah. When I am working with somebody who has been maybe, like, physically assaulted- Mm-hmm that memory is distressing. Mm-hmm. What I'm asking them, it goes back to dual awareness. Yeah. How much are you here with me in the moment? Yeah. So anyway, it's the bulk of what people think of when they think of EMDR, but it is pretty simple. I've got a couple more things that I wanna go over, but Garth, what questions do you have for me so far? So can you give us a l- a lead of all of the steps up, up to here? So what, what are the order of events? Up to here again. I just want to contextualize something really quick. Yeah. So you want me to give you the other phases? Yeah. Okay. So in phase one we're history taking. Okay. Remember the goal is not that we get everything down- Mm-hmm but that we are dipping our toe and the client's toe into their history. We're starting to make some connections. Right. Phase two is preparation. Okay. So we are doing things like providing psycho-education- Mm-hmm ... resourcing identifying any barriers to care. Mm-hmm. So what would be maybe like some secondary gains that they would have and things like that. Okay. In phase three we are assessing. So this is where we take the information that we got from history taking, the information that we got from preparation- Mm-hmm ... because we learn about how re-resourced they are there. Right. And we start to really create a more formal plan. Okay. We get negative cognitions. We get specific targets- Yeah ... things like that. Yeah. Okay. Is that helpful? And then this step. And then this is phase four. Yeah. Where we're actually getting into again what people typically think of when they think of EMDR because this is where we first introduce desensitizing bilateral stimulation. Yeah. And so y- you- you've talked a lot about the dual awareness- Yeah ... that is... And I guess that's the goal of this step, right? Yes. Of this phase- Yes ... is, is to just achieve that dual awareness. Which again then has a domino effect. Yeah. If I can recognize that I'm present here in the moment and this happened in the past, then my emotions around it decrease- Mm-hmm my body sensations around it decrease- Mm-hmm ... my negative cognition around it decreases- Yeah ... and I can start to then here in a moment move forward. I won't go into how we're moving forward- Mm-hmm ... that's the next phase, but yes. Do you notice a lot of clients, because you've talked about how this process is circular a lot, as you're trying to achieve dual awareness, is that where it's like revealing new layers of the memory for the client? It's becoming clearer, more in focus, and then maybe there's some more history-taking to do because there was a whole nother layer here and you kinda need to jump out of this step and take some more information? Or how... Is there, is there anything of a significant pattern that you notice here? Yeah. So are, are there... When you say is there a significant pattern, like are there things that I see that happen often for clients in this phase? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So- I think that what you just brought up was, is it common for more information to arise in this phase? Yeah, that's a much more succinct way to say- Yeah ... what I was trying to say. Yeah. And yes, it is common for more information- Okay ... to arise in this phase, sometimes related to the specific memory that you're addressing, if you're addressing a specific- Mm-hmm ... identified memory from the past, sometimes related to a larger memory network- Mm-hmm ... that's not this specific memory. We've talked about this on the podcast before, but this is a really good tool for clinicians and a really good thing for clients to remember. It is okay for clinicians to say "Hey, I, I heard that." Mm-hmm. Right? "That seems really hard, and it also seems like it- it's related to this, but it's over here. Let me hold that for you." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. Here's where it gets complicated. There is EMDR, which is the basic protocol that we're talking about today. Yeah. And then there is EMD, little R, and then there is EMD. And you're looking at me- What? ... like... I know, I know, I know, I know. And I'm trying to decide in our next episode how much we're really going to get into- Mm all of that. But- Okay ... the, the clinician along with the client can choose how, The way that I explain it to clients- Mm-hmm ... I will tell clients at the beginning of a session, "Your job is to just let whatever comes up come up." Mm-hmm. "I have a few different jobs." Mm-hmm. "I have quite a few rules that I'm following. That's okay." Yeah. "Let me do my jobs. Let me follow my rules." Right. "You just let whatever comes up come up." Yeah. "If something comes up that I think we need to be addressing at a different time, I'm gonna tell you, 'Hey, Garth, I've got that.'" Mm-hmm. "I'm writing it down. You don't need to hold it." Yeah. "I want you to come back to this Polaroid." Blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And the clinician and the client can decide ahead of time- how much they want to address in that day- Mm-hmm ... and how much they want to allow the client to just kind of free associate. But also, the clinician needs to make decisions in the moment based off of the client's, what the client is demonstrating to them- Yeah right? Yeah. Like, are we getting so far out of our window of tolerance that we're gonna completely shut down? Mm-hmm. Well, even if the clinician and the client had agreed to really just allow, like, kind of free association, the clinician's gonna need to come in and really kind of- Yeah ... contain. Yeah. And so even if you didn't agree upon it ahead of time, there might be an instance where the clinician needs to say, "Hey, Garth, I hear you." Yeah. "I'm writing that down right now." Yeah. "I've, I've got that whole piece." Yeah. "I want you to come back to the, the Polaroid." Right. So, yes, in this phase, sometimes things get a l- a little wild. Mm-hmm. Not for everybody. Yeah. Some people are gonna come in, and it's gonna be really clean-cut, by the book. Mm-hmm. Right? So can I- Yeah ... can I throw a metaphor out? Because I know how we love metaphors, and you tell me if it's right or wrong or correct it. Sure. This phase seems like when you put a pair of binoculars up to your face, and maybe you're trying to, you know, scan a hillside at a national park looking for a free-range buffalo. You put those up to your eyes, and they're not always focused. But then as you start to move the focus dial, you start to get more information. And so as you start to get more information, things become clearer, and you're able to realize, I don't know, that, that you're, you're able to achieve what you're trying to achieve, which is to see across this field or whatever. No? You're looking at me like I'm crazy. All right, never mind. No, no, I'm- I'm just imagining the, the, this step seems like it's about providing clarity on, on a n- on a memory. Is that right or wrong? And, and it's more than that. I'm trying to really simplify it, but that's how I like to do things. Y- there is n- nothing wrong with your metaphor. You're- Okay ... you're hitting it. What I'm struggling with is y- remember earlier I said- Mm-hmm ... yeah. Yeah. Like, not that I didn't wanna dive in too much specifically to to what it looks like for folks 'cause I'd, I'd never want somebody to, I will tell you as an EMDR clinician- Mm-hmm that it is very difficult now for me to do EMDR as a client. Mm-hmm. Okay. There is a point where you know too much. Gotcha. Okay. Well- And so I tell clients, like, "I want you to know enough about EMDR that you feel comfortable proceeding." Mm-hmm. And also there is a point where it starts to become too much of a cognitive experience for you. Here's what I'll say about your metaphor. Okay. But I'm not gonna explain myself. Okay. So perfect. Okay. Yeah. That's- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... all right, yeah. I know, right? Okay. This phase would be most like scanning the horizon for a buffalo, it being blurry. You zoom in, it gets clear, and then you zoom back out and it gets blurry again. Okay. And I'm just gonna leave that there. Okay. I do- All right. Just leave it there ... so I don't, I don't know how helpful that will be to the listener. You heard it here, folks. But I do feel like that describes the experience for a lot of people. Okay. Again, I'm not g- I'm not gonna get into it more. I'm just gonna say, We'll take it. We'll take it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. All right. Okay. Let's talk about the therapist's role for just a second. Okay. The therapist's job is really to get out of the way as much as possible, right? Yeah. They are, I think of it as, like, what we're doing right now with our, we can say one-year-old. Mm-hmm. Our one-year-old had a birthday over the weekend. I think of it like what we're doing with our one-year-old when we let her play outside in the backyard. Mm-hmm. She's going to do what she needs to do to learn. Yep. Like, if we let her outside in the backyard, and it's wonderful to set up- Mm-hmm ... like, developmental activities- Yeah ... and things like that, right? Yeah. Like, that's great. And also- She'll go pull grass. Yes. Yeah. Her brain and body is gonna do a lot of what it needs to do. We need to stand close to her- Mm-hmm ... assess whether or not you know, she picks up an acorn that she's gonna- Mm-hmm ... stuff in her mouth and then find thr- three more that- Mm-hmm you know, like true story from- Yeah ... a few weeks ago. Yeah. Like, our jobs are really to just let her brain and body do the work and assess if she runs into a problem. Yeah. And then know what to do to intervene- Mm-hmm ... and address that. Maybe not even a problem because I don't think, like, her picking up an acorn and putting it in her mouth is a problem. We just- Her swallowing an acorn or choking on an acorn would be a problem. Right. Yeah. Like, we, we just need to, like, see whenever a little bit of assistance is needed- Mm-hmm ... and kind of provide as little, I, I think this is where it really hits, provide as little intervention as possible- Mm-hmm. Yeah ... so that she can just keep rolling with her process. Mm-hmm. And we don't do too much to interrupt her process- Yep ... because it's a really good process if we'll just let it roll. So we, you know, things I see with new clinicians is they keep their BLS, their bilateral stimulation too short. Mm-hmm. They talk too much. Mm-hmm. They let people stay in a cognitive place and chat- Mm-hmm too often. They use interweaves too much, and we're gonna talk here in a moment about what interweaves are. Oh, boy. But yeah, if I were to say what's the most effective way for a clinician to allow phase four to happen, it's putting your one-year-old in the backyard- Mm-hmm ... and being close, but not seeing anything as a huge issue. Unless it is, right? Right Like- Yeah, obviously you see her crawling towards a, a bird that has died in the backyard. Like, "We're not gonna let you explore the dead bird." Right. Or like we haven't had this happen, but like a copperhead's randomly in the backyard- Yeah, yeah ... and I see her like three feet away from it. Like, that's a point where I'm sprinting. Yeah. We're not gonna scope, let her scope that out. Yeah, but that doesn't happen- Mm-hmm ... very often in EMDR. Yeah. More often it's, "Oh, there's an acorn in your mouth." Mm-hmm. "Let's like gently..." Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's, that's- Right. Okay, so a cognitive interweave. This is the most, the most significant way that a clinician is intervening from just like following the basic protocol, which k- interweaves are part of the basic protocol, but without just recognizing like, "This client's really headed in a direction that's- Mm-hmm not great. I need to just like stop this and ground them- Mm-hmm ... and use grounding techniques." But an interweave is just when an individual is stuck, and we can provide some sort of visual cognition- Mm-hmm ... something that we think can help move them past this. Mm-hmm. Now, we talked about this in resourcing a little bit, but in an ideal world, this imagery, this cognition is not really coming from us. Mm-hmm. Remember I had said I, I like vicariously fall in love with grandmas often- Yeah ... that have just been a- They, there's a figure that's providing that, yeah ... a big support, yeah, to, to my clients. I need to know grandma well enough that when we hit a barrier in phase four- Mm-hmm ... that I am able to give a realistic piece of feedback, a realistic interweave of like- Mm-hmm "Well, in this situation, don't you think grandma would come over and take your hand and tell you that you were enough?" Mm-hmm. Yeah. "And that this was, this was a bump." Mm-hmm. 'Cause I know she called mistakes bumps. Like, "This was a bump." Mm-hmm. "And that you were gonna keep going over the bump," right? Mm-hmm. And like, that's an effective interweave. Yeah. If I have to use my own words, I will, but that's like last ditch effort. I've done everything that I can- Mm-hmm. Yeah before I do that, we wanna try to use those resourced figure's word, resourced figure's words- Mm-hmm ... if we possibly can. So again, the clinician really is, the clinician needs to contain, so we're not gonna go off to other memories. The clinician needs to come back to the original worst part. Mm-hmm. The clinician needs to provide an interweave, like I just explained, or the clinician needs to say, "We're pausing, and we're grounding." Mm-hmm. So we're doing things like "Here's some essential oil for you to smell. What are five blue things that you see in the room?" Right. There's a lot of blue in my office, right? Yeah. But in an ideal world, the clinician is a parent in the backyard with their one-year-old just kinda- Mm-hmm ... standing back and observing. Yep. I like that. Does that make sense? It makes complete sense to me. Okay. Let's check our time. I think we've done 31 minutes. Hey. It's not too bad. It's not too bad- ... for the meatiest, quote, part of EMDR. We did trail off a couple of times. We did. And one of our trails was not even about EMDR. It was about a puffer fish, which I am going to look into after this. Yeah, here comes the Google rabbit trail. Yeah. The goo- googit. The g- The googit. That's shorthand. I'm gonna googit. I'm gonna googit. Yeah. That needs to be a part of a song. Yeah. Okay. Folks, thank you for listening to phase four, what are the eight phases of EMDR. We appreciate you. 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